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Just Like the Days of Noah
American Vision ^ | January 3, 2011 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 01/03/2011 6:57:38 AM PST by topcat54

Almost daily I get questions about prophetic topics. In most cases, I’ve already dealt with them in my books Last Days Madness, The Early Church and the End of the World, Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future, and10 Popular Prophecy Myths Exposed and Answered. When I point people to these books for my take on a particular passage, a number of them bristle at the suggestion. A few of them want a “yes” or “no” answer right then and there. It’s almost never that simple. What they’re really looking for is an excuse not to study the issue. “If Gary DeMar doesn’t believe like I do on _________________, then I don’t want to spend money on a whole book of his errors.” Some of emailers think I push my books because I make money on them. I don’t receive a penny in royalties from anything I do at American Vision. In fact, I don’t even receive a salary. My goal is to get Christians to study these issues for themselves. We need fewer “gutter sparrows” (Acts 17:18) and more “noble minded” Christians who “examine the Scriptures” (17:11).

Anyone who has read my books knows that I walk the reader through the process of how I came to a particular interpretation. Instead of just telling someone what I believe a particular text means, it’s important to know the process. Hopefully, the reader will follow a similar process with other texts and thereby become a better student of the Bible. One question that I get on a regular basis is the “left behind” passage in Matthew 24.

To help His listeners better understand the timing and circumstances of the events leading up to and including the destruction of the temple before their generation passed away, Jesus draws on a familiar Old Testament judgment event—the flood. Jesus, teaching by analogy, shows how the coming of the flood waters and His own coming in judgment against Jerusalem are similar. In Noah’s time we read about “those days which were before the flood” and “the day that NOAH ENTERED THE ARK” (Matt. 24:38). Similarly, there were days before the coming of the Son of Man and the day of the coming of the Son of Man. The same people were involved in both the “days before” and “the day of” the Son of Man. Those who “were eating and drinking” and “marrying and giving in marriage” were the same people who were shut out on “the day that Noah entered the ark.” Noah entered the ark on a single day similar to the way Jesus as the Son of Man came on the “clouds of the sky with power and great glory” (24:30), a day and hour known only to the Father (24:36). “Some shall be rescued from the destruction of Jerusalem, like Lot out of the burning of Sodom: while others, no ways perhaps different in outward circumstances, shall be left to perish in it.”[1]

Jesus says that His coming “will be just like the days of Noah” (24:37). The people were doing normal things—“eating and drinking” and “marrying and giving in marriage.” Jesus is telling his audience that life will go on as usual when Jesus returns in judgment against the temple and city of Jerusalem. People had no thought of a coming judgment in Noah’s day since there were no signs. Noah was told to prepare for “things not yet seen” (Heb. 11:7). Jesus is not describing evil behavior like drunkenness and sexual sins like “‘exchanging mates’ or ‘wife swapping,’ contrary to what M. R. DeHaan and Jack Van Impe claim.[2] “Marrying and given in marriage” is a phrase to describe, well, “marrying and giving in marriage” (see Matt. 22:30). People do it every day. Men and women marry and parents give their daughters away in marriage. D. A. Carson’s comments are helpful:

[T]hat the coming of the Son of Man takes place at an unknown time can only be true if in fact life seems to be going on pretty much as usual—just as in the days before the flood (v. 37). People follow their ordinary pursuits (v. 38). Despite the distress, persecutions, and upheavals (vv. 4–28), life goes on: people eat, drink, and marry. There is no overt typological usage of the Flood as judgment here, nor any mention of the sin of that generation.[3]

Support for Carson’s interpretation can be found in Luke’s account of the time just before Sodom’s destruction: “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:28). Buying, selling, planting, and building describe life going on as usual without any regard to an impending judgment. Are dispensationalists willing to say that these activities “connote moral corruption”? Darrell L. Bock attempts this interpretation even though he admits that the idea of “moral corruption . . . is not emphasized in Luke’s description.”[4] No one disputes that Noah and Lot lived in a time of moral corruption that brought judgment. Jesus’ point is that the people in Noah and Lot’s day went on with their lives as if the promise of imminent judgment was a lie (see 2 Peter 3:3–4).[5] The same is true of those who were told that Jesus would return in judgment within a generation (Matt. 24:34).

No “Rapture” Here!

Many futurists claim that the phrase “took them all away” (24:39) refers to a rapture that is still in our future. On the contrary. “In the context of 24:37–39, ‘taken’ presumably means ‘taken to judgment’ (cf. Jer. 6:11 NASB, NRSV).”[6] The phrase ties the judgment of the world in Noah’s day with the judgment of the Jews’ world in Israel’s day that took place with the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the temple. Who was taken away in the judgment of the flood? Not Noah and his family. They were “left behind” to carry on God’s work. John Gill writes in his commentary on this passage: “the whole world of the ungodly, every man, woman, and child, except eight persons only; Noah and his wife, and his three sons and their wives. . . .” were taken away in judgment. And what does Gill say about those in the field?: They shall be taken away “by the eagles, the Roman army, and either killed or carried captive by them.” The Bible gives its own commentary on the meaning of “took them all away” in Luke 17:27, 29: “Destroyed them all” is equivalent to “took them all away.” Consider dispensationalist John Walvoord’s comments on “took them away.”

An argument advanced by Alexander Reese and adopted by [Robert] Gundry is that the references in Matthew 24:40, 41 should be interpreted as referring to the rapture. These verses state, “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; one shall be taken and the other left.”

Here both Gundry and Reese violate the rule that the context should determine the interpretation of a passage. Both Gundry and Reese concede that the context deals with judgment such as characterized the time of Noah. According to Matthew 24:39 those living at that time “knew not until the flood came, and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.” Those taken away were taken away in judgment. . . .

Claiming that those taken in verses 40 and 41 are taken away in the rapture, Gundry in discussing the parallel passage in Luke 17:34–37, ignores verse 37. There two are pictured in the same bed, with one taken and the other left. Two are grinding together, and one is taken and the other left. Two are in the field, one is taken and the other left. Then, in verse 37, the question is asked, “Where, Lord?” The answer is very dramatic: “And He said unto them, Wherever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” It should be very clear that the ones taken are put to death and their bodies are consumed by the vultures. If the ones taken are killed, then verses 40, 41 of Matthew 24 speak of precisely the same kind of judgment as occurred in the flood where the ones taken were taken in judgment.[7]

But like Reese and Gundry, Walvoord ignores the time texts that run throughout Matthew 24–25, claiming that they refer to a distant coming of Christ. Since there was a judgment where Jews were in fact “taken away in judgment,” it makes much more sense to place the timing of such an event to the closest event, Jerusalem’s destruction in A.D. 70.

Mix and Match

A number of commentators (e.g., J. Marcellus Kik and Kenneth Gentry) argue that Matthew 24:35 is a “transition text.” It’s at this point, they argue, that Jesus is referring to a time period that is still in our future. Luke 17:22–37 describes five Olivet-Discourse prophetic events that are identical to those found in Matthew 24. The difference between Matthew 24 and Luke 17 is in the order of the events, a characteristic of the passages that few commentators can explain. Ray Summers writes:

This is a most difficult passage. The overall reference appears to be to the coming of the Son of Man—Christ—in judgment at the end of the age. Some small parts of it, however, are repeated in Luke 21 in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), and larger parts of it are in Matthew 24, also in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. The entire complex cautions one against dogmatism in interpreting.[8]

Taking Matthew 24 as the standard, Luke places the Noah’s ark analogy (Matt. 24:37–39) before the events of Matthew 24:17–18 (“let him who is on the housetop not go down”), verse 27 (“for just as the lightning comes from the east”), and verse 28 (“wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather”). If the five prophetic events of Matthew 24 that are found in Luke 17:22–37 are numbered 1–2–3–4–5, Luke’s numbering of the same events would be 2–4–1–5–3.[9] (See accompanying chart.)

After A Long Time

Another line of evidence offered by those who believe that events following Matthew 24:34 refer to a yet future personal and physical return of Jesus is the meaning given to “after a long time” (24:48; 25:19) and the “delay” by the bridegroom (25:5). On the surface these examples seem to indicate that two different events are in view, one near (the destruction of Jerusalem) and one distant (the second coming of Christ). This is the view of Stephen F. Hayhow.

Both parables, the parables of the virgins (vv. 1–13), and the parable of the talents (vv. 14–30), speak of the absence of the bridegroom/master, who is said to be “a long time in coming” (v. 5) and “After a long time the master of the servants returned¼” (v. 19). This suggests, not the events of A.D. 70 which were to occur in the near future, in fact within the space of a generation, but a distant event, the return of Christ.[10]

Notice that the evil slave says, “My master is not coming for a long time” (Matt. 24:48). The evil slave then proceeds to “beat his fellow-slaves and eat and drink with drunkards” (24:49). But to the surprise of the “evil slave” the master returned when he least expected him (24:50). The master did not return to cut the evil slave’s distant relatives in pieces (24:51); he cut him in pieces. The evil slave was alive when the master left, and he was alive when the master returned. In this context, a “long time” must be measured against a person’s lifetime. In context, two years could be a long time if the master usually returned within six months.

The same idea is expressed in the parable of the “talents.” A man entrusts his slaves with his possessions (25:14). The master then goes on a journey (25:15). While the master is gone, the slaves make investment decisions (25:16–18). We are then told that “after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them” (25:19). In this context “a long time” is no longer than an average lifetime. The settlement is made with the same slaves who received the talents. In every other New Testament context, “a long time” means nothing more than an extended period of time (Luke 8:27; 23:8; John 5:6; Acts 8:11; 14:3, 28; 26:5, 29; 27:21; 28:6). Nowhere does it mean centuries or multiple generations.

The delay of the bridegroom is no different from the “long time” of the two previous parables. The bridegroom returns to the same two groups of virgins (25:1–13). The duration of the delay must be measured by the audience.

This brief analysis helps us understand the “mockers” who ask, “Where is the promise of His coming?” (2 Peter 3:3–4). Peter was aware that Jesus’ coming was an event that would take place before the last apostle died (Matt. 16:27–28; John 21:22–23). The doctrine of the soon return of Christ was common knowledge (Matt. 24:34; 26:64; Phil. 4:5; Heb. 10:25; 1 John 2:18; Rev. 1:1, 3). It is not hard to imagine that the passage of several decades would lead some to doubt the reliability of the prophecy, especially as the promised generation was coming to a close. The horrendous events of A.D. 70 silenced the mockers.

Endnotes:

[1] Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, Which Have Remarkably Been Fulfilled, and at This Time are Fulfilling in the World (London: J.F. Dove, 1754), 379.
[2] Jack Van Impe, The Great Escape: Preparing for the Rapture, the Next Event on God’s Prophetic Clock (Nashville, TN: Word, 1998), 127.
[3] D. A. Carson, “Matthew,” The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, gen. ed., Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 8:509. Also see N. T. Wright, Jesus and the Victory of God (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 1996), 365–66.
[4] Darrell L. Bock, Luke: Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, 2 vols. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1996), 2:1432–1433.
[5] Notice the audience reference: “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things” (2 Pet. 3:14). Peter is not describing a distant event but one that was soon to occur.
[6] Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), 115.
[7] John F. Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation: A Historical and Biblical Study of Posttribulationism (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1976), 89, 90. Walvoord writes in another place: “Because at the rapture believers will be taken out of the world, some have confused this with the rapture of the church. Here, however, the situation is the reverse. The one who is left, is left to enter the kingdom; the one who is taken, is taken in judgment.” John F. Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1974), 193.
[8] Ray Summers, Commentary on Luke: Jesus, the Universal Savior (Waco, TX: Word Books, 1972), 202.
[9] See the helpful chart in Edward E. Stevens, What Happened in A.D. 70? (Bradford, PA: Kingdom Publicans, 1997). While this is not positive proof of an A.D. 70 fulfillment for chapters 24 and 25, it certainly adds credibility to the position.
[10] Stephen F. Hayhow, “Matthew 24, Luke 17 and the Destruction of Jerusalem,” Christianity and Society 4:2 (April 1994), 4.


Permission to reprint granted by American Vision, P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: eschatology
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1 posted on 01/03/2011 6:57:43 AM PST by topcat54
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)
Biblically Optimistic and Gospel-Based

"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

2 posted on 01/03/2011 6:58:30 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

bfl


3 posted on 01/03/2011 7:05:45 AM PST by pigsmith
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To: topcat54

>>Who was taken away in the judgment of the flood? Not Noah and his family.<<

Oh but they were! They were taken from the destruction that occurred to the rest of mankind. They were “taken up” in the Ark while others were “left behind” to parish in the flood of destruction.


4 posted on 01/03/2011 7:10:46 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: topcat54

>> We need fewer “gutter sparrows” (Acts 17:18)<<

“Gutter sparrows”? How one draws gutter sparrows from Acts 17:18 is beyond me. Is it indicative of the interpretive skill of DeMar or the language of one who tries to inject personal beliefs into Scripture planting seeds of destruction?

Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.


5 posted on 01/03/2011 7:17:42 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: topcat54
Not sure I'm getting your point: are you suggesting that the Second Coming and the Great Judgment already happened, in 70AD?
To continue the same line of reasoning, we are either in heaven or in hell now, as a result of Judgment, and one look around can convince anybody that it ain't heaven.
Are we all doomed convicts?
6 posted on 01/03/2011 7:20:43 AM PST by Samogon (Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. - Plato)
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No man knows the day or hour...Woman, however...

7 posted on 01/03/2011 7:24:45 AM PST by evets (beer)
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To: Samogon

good point. If Jesus returned to reign on earth where is He. Might as well forget the whole gospel then


8 posted on 01/03/2011 7:30:33 AM PST by vanilla swirl (We are the Patrick Henry we have been waiting for!)
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To: topcat54
The Scriptures teach and I and all the children of God created in Christ Jesus believe, Jesus Christ will descend from heaven with a shout of the arch angel and the trump of God and the dead in Christ will rise first to meet Him in the air and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up into the air with them in an instant and so shall we ever be with the Lord; as the apostle Paul to the Gentiles taught by the revelations of Jesus Christ to him only. Then the wicked one will be revealed, the seven year tribulation of the wrath of God on the anti Christ and on all nations and peoples who did not believe God and His Christ and submit themselves to Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour and King of the earth. The 21 judgments of God the Father and His Christ during the flood of desolation's on the earth will be used to destroy all who refused God's salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, who died for OUR SINS and rose again the third day, overcoming death and hell and the grave and him that has the power of death,that is the devil Lucifer. Christ Jesus will descend from the Heaven of God the Father with His translated saints and Holy Angels and destroy the anti christ and the false prophet who does miracles before him and the gentile armies that will come to destroy Israel on the mountains of Israel on the last day of the prophesied tribulation. God the Son, Jesus Christ, will then rule and reign in Israel His throne over all the nations of the earth whose power and armies He destroyed the day He returns when His feet shall stand on the east side of Jerusalem and all nations will be subservient to Christ Jesus, the Son of God and God the Son, for 1000 years. All His enemies will be destroyed, all those who said in their hearts and or with their mouths that they would not have Christ Jesus to rule over them.
This is what God says in His Scriptures and all the words of the world will not change His Word, the devil Lucifer will be locked up for 1000 years and then the white throne judgment where God will cast the unbelievers who denied Jesus Christ into the Lake of Fire. This is the doom of all who say no to the mercy of God and His Christ, they will be cast into the Lake of fire with the devil Lucifer and his angels where the antichrist and the false prophet are for the 1000 year rule of Christ Jesus the King of the whole earth, then God will create the new heavens and the new earth and we will be His people and He our God and He will hear us when we call and say, it is my people and we will say, He is my Father. The just shall live by faith.
9 posted on 01/03/2011 7:30:47 AM PST by kindred (Come Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies.)
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To: Samogon

Not sure I’m getting your point: are you suggesting that the Second Coming and the Great Judgment already happened, in 70AD?
To continue the same line of reasoning, we are either in heaven or in hell now, as a result of Judgment, and one look around can convince anybody that it ain’t heaven.
Are we all doomed convicts?


Demar is a proponent of Preterism — or at least partial Preterism. This is the belief that Christ’ “Second Coming” in judgement is fulfilled in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple and the scattering of Israel.

Demar MAY believe that there is a literal return of Christ yet future — but that is ALL that is left to fulfill prophecy. Then again, FULL Preterists don’t even believe that. It’s not clear to me exactly where Demar is on this, but as he denies the imminent return of Christ, I have issues with his eschatology — and his clear misunderstanding of Scripture.

Basically, the Preterist view looks at all Prophetic Scripture as symbolic, and “spiritualizes” its meaning. The only “literal” event affirmed is the 2nd Coming of Christ, which both partial and full Preterists believe occurred in 70AD. The difference is that partial Preterists believe believe there will be a literal return of Christ in the distant future (generally after a “millenium” has been established by the Church on earth — i.e. “postmillenialism” or sometimes the less assuming “amillennialism”). Full Preterists apparently believe there is no future return of the Lord. What does that mean? I’ve never had a full Preterist acutally ANSWER that question — but generally full Preterism should be regarded as aberrant theology and heresy. Partial Preterism certainly straddles that border.


10 posted on 01/03/2011 8:08:21 AM PST by patriot preacher
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To: topcat54

Why did God send the flood? That particular activity is what is to be again at some future time. What was going on that caused the flood to happen has NOT yet reoccurred. Although the next ‘flood’ is not to be a flood of waters, but a flood of lies, and sadly this prophet is assisting in the pouring out of deception.


11 posted on 01/03/2011 8:08:44 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: kindred
The Scriptures teach and I and all the children of God created in Christ Jesus believe, Jesus Christ will descend from heaven with a shout of the arch angel and the trump of God and the dead in Christ will rise first to meet Him in the air and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up into the air with them in an instant and so shall we ever be with the Lord;

Yes, I believe that. It’s called the second coming.

Then the wicked one will be revealed, the seven year tribulation of the wrath of God on the anti Christ and on all nations and peoples who did not believe God …

Not everyone believes that. I certainly don’t. Most non-dispensationalists don’t.

The 21 judgments of God the Father and His Christ during the flood of desolation's on the earth will be used to destroy all who …

Which prophecy preacher taught you this? Is it allegedly in the Bible?

Most of what you have written only makes sense if you first accept the false system of dispensationalism. Otherwise, those ideas are not found in the Bible.

12 posted on 01/03/2011 8:12:58 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: patriot preacher; Samogon
This is the belief that Christ’ “Second Coming” in judgement is fulfilled in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple and the scattering of Israel.

False. DeMar believes the bodily Second Coming is still in the future. There was a temporal judgment or “coming” against apostate Israel in AD70 when the temple was destroyed. That is the view of orthodox preterism.

he denies the imminent return of Christ

Biblically speaking what is the “imminent return of Christ?” And where does DeMar deny Christ’s imminency?

Basically, the Preterist view looks at all Prophetic Scripture as symbolic, and “spiritualizes” its meaning.

The Bible is a spiritual book and its contents are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14). The Bible teaches that “the kingdom of God is within you” yet most so-called “literalists” deny this and are looking forward to a physical kingdom on earth with Jesus seated on a carnal throne in carnal Jerusalem. Christ denied this was even a possibility.

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, " The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 21)
Your problem seems to be with the Bible, not DeMar.
13 posted on 01/03/2011 8:22:18 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Samogon
Not sure I'm getting your point: are you suggesting that the Second Coming and the Great Judgment already happened, in 70AD?

No.

14 posted on 01/03/2011 8:23:40 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear

Going by memory, without digging out my Greek lexicon, the word for “babbler” refers to a variety of small bird.


15 posted on 01/03/2011 8:25:53 AM PST by old3030 (I lost some time once. It's always in the last place you look.)
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To: CynicalBear
Oh but they were! They were taken from the destruction that occurred to the rest of mankind. They were “taken up” in the Ark while others were “left behind” to parish in the flood of destruction.

The rapturenauts twist the meaning and invert the order. It is the unbelievers that are “taken away” just as in the flood. They were the ones who perished. Remeber, judgment is in view. The unrighteous are the ones judged.

did not know until the flood came and took them all away (Matt. 24:39)
It was the unbelievers who hadn’t a clue that judgment day would come and lived their lives according to their own desires. Believers are prepared, like Noah and his family. They knew the flood (judgment day) was inevitable and on the horizon.

But even then we do not know the timing of these events.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

16 posted on 01/03/2011 8:29:55 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear
“Gutter sparrows”? How one draws gutter sparrows from Acts 17:18 is beyond me.

Look at the greek original, that might help. Gr. spermologos.

1) picking up seed
a) of birds, esp. of the crow or daw that picks up grain in fields
2) metaph.
a) lounging about the market place and picking up a substance by whatever may chance to fall from the loads of merchandise
b) hence, beggarly, abject, vile, (a parasite)
c) getting a living by flattery and bufferoonery
d) an empty talker, babbler

17 posted on 01/03/2011 8:35:19 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

Well, you have your work cut out for you. Most people grew up with Scoville and have no idea that the “Rapture” and Dispensationalism, etc. are of relatively recent provenance. Good that you are trying, though.


18 posted on 01/03/2011 8:36:49 AM PST by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: kindred

I agree with you for the most part. There will be a Second Coming. There will be a Resurrection.

I question the idea of a seven-year tribulation between the Rapture and what would be the Third Coming. I think that’s comes more from footnotes than from Scripture. I don’t think Daniel is missing a week, and I think Messiah was cut-off in the middle of a seven-year period — three and a half years after the beginning of His public ministry. If that makes me a heretic, then I’m a heretic.


19 posted on 01/03/2011 8:37:59 AM PST by old3030 (I lost some time once. It's always in the last place you look.)
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To: CynicalBear

***“Gutter sparrows”? How one draws gutter sparrows from Acts 17:18 is beyond me.***

I thought the term “babbler” was “seed picker”.


20 posted on 01/03/2011 8:42:20 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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